- If God is good then why are there evil in this world?
- If God is good and all powerful, then why doesn't He remove the evil in this world?
- The evil in this world proves that there is no God.
Come R-AGE Youth and YA. Its time to think critically about theology. Let's sharpen each others theology so we can be prepared for works of righteousness.
Post your comments!
17 comments:
hey, my two cents worth.
i actually really love this topic lei! but anyway, i think that to your third point "evil proves there is no God in this world", i think that on the contrary, evil DOES prove the existence of God.
because in almost everything, x is defined by whatever is not x. evil is defined by the absence of Holiness. you can only tell what is unholy if you can tell what is holy, you know what i mean? therefore if you can spot evil, you can spot holiness - God.
i once read in Lee Strobel's "Case For Faith" that two turtles were having a conversation. it goes something like this:
turtle A: why do you think God can just sit there and do nothing about the suffering of this world?
turtle B: sometimes i think God asks us the same question.
something to that effect. and i think that evil is really man's own doing, not God's own doing. God never ever creates evil; the fact is, EVIL CAN'T BE CREATED! it's a concept that manifests itself in negative ramifications. it's like the notion of "bad" versus the "effects of bad". evil just exists because it falls short of whatever God's perfect standard is; holiness. and i think i learnt this from you, pastor =)
but more interestingly, why does evil happen to good people? certainly we can't say it's the result of their own doing, can we? and i guess here we've got to address the issue of what we define as evil. what may be evil in our perspective may not be evil in God's perspective. our views are always short-range and seldom long-range.
yup, that's what i have! hope it's useful!
This is my take on the abovementioned issue...
I've always pondered on what 'good' is. Can anyone define 'good' or 'goodness'? No, it is humanly impossible because our yardstick of 'good' has been marred by apparent imperfection and the sin that exists in our flesh.
Therefore, I come to the conclusion that the only way to define 'good' is by way of God. God is good. And everything else that is not of God is not good. Ponder upon that and you'll realise that it can only stand too true. We have to consider all that we do, like Paul does in Phi 3:7-9, as rubbish.
The presence of evil is the absence of good. When creation took place, everything was good until God allowed the serpent, and subsequently Man, to contaminate the world, thereby allowing sin to rear its ugly head, under the permission of God. Do note that God allowed this to happen; He could have prevented Satan from doing so, no? That's how I perceive it.
This dichotomy of good and evil can only bring to light one issue - that God has bestowed Man with choice. Gen 2:16-17, "And the LORD God commanded the man,'You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.'" That paraphrased is, "Adam, your destiny is in your hands."
God allows evil to still exist because He is in total control of the situation. A lot of people have this terrible misconception that Satan rules hell. No! God rules it and created it for Satan to reside in. Eventually Satan and all the fallen angels and unsaved souls will perish in the eternal flame! Struggling between good and evil becomes a perpetual daily battle for Man. There is evil in this world because of Man, but the redeeming love of God draws Man back to Him and the death and resurrection power of Christ actually makes it happen and gives Man access to God once again.
It is convenient to just leave all explanation to 'God's sovereignty' or abandon the argument to 'faith'. Biblically, I'm not learned enough on this subject to comment on it. But I certainly do not leave it at that basis. On the other hand, I do not see the need to pursue this topic because it, to a certain extent, has inconsequential influence in my walk with God. Ignorant? Not really, I'd rather spend time and energy on the right battles.
God will remove evil, that's for sure. And trust me, He will do a very good job - even created 6 different hells for sin (evil) and its partakers. I'm gonna trust God and do what I humanly can (now, isn't that ironic) to find my way to heaven. There is a difference - finding your way to heaven and getting out of hell. Let's not get too spiritual over this statement as it's a controversial one. I fully understand what salvation is but I'm not as gifted as Paul is to elucidate what it means in words.
So, like darkness is the absence of light and cold is the absence of heat, allow me once again reiterate that evil is the absence of good, or in this case, God.
In conclusion, God created and is good, and He will remove evil ultimately, but perhaps not now for He permits it to exist in this world for His own reason.
- Joey Asher
sorry, im not particularly well-versed in any of this so pardon my ignorance, but i'd just like to ask a little about the comments sam, and especially justin, have posted so far.
the general idea i grasped while reading was that of the role of relativity. something is good because it is not bad (or as bad as something else). in justin's commentary, point of reference is key in determining if someone is saintly/evil, for instance.
then i ask, why is there a concept of an absolute good and evil? we'd simply plunge into turmoil if we were simply to judge based on our own human perception (which we all agree to be limited in many ways), and conclude that a certain person is good because he's better than another.
yes, some things in life may indeed appear to be relative, but they are, in my opinion, always backed up by what is absolute. a person who kills may be a murderer, or merely an executioner. are we going to say that both are violating the commandment not to kill? you see, there is a difference, because the one who kills out of greed/lust/jealousy/whatever = murderer, whilst the one who kills for justice as required by his state leadership = executioner.
we do not condone injustice being committed because deep down, we do believe in absolutes. "This man that lies in this coffin is a robber, a thief, a drug dealer and a gangster who is the scum of the universe, but compared to his brother, HE IS A SAINT!" we do know, however, he really is not.
to claim that something is relative is to claim that the very same something can be both true and false, depending on one's point of view. which is utterly lame because, who cares about our own points of view man.
what is important here is we realise that all this is but a creation by man himself, this whole escapist relativist concept. it is but an attempt to wash away our guilt brought about by sin. therefore i do agree very much with what joey has posted, that "the only way to define 'good' is by way of God. God is good. And everything else that is not of God is not good."
ahh i don't know. i think i just got a little confused as well.
oh and i read something on a site some time ago, goes something like:
do you believe that everything in life is relative, not absolute? yes! is that an absolute statement? yes! but i thought you just said that nothing's absolute?
it is because there are absolutes so hard to admit and follow, that we unholy men try to loosen some slack and create all of this for ourselves.
(and yes sorry for going totally off topic, it was just something i wanted to clarify.)
Yeah i love this topic very much too and have often thought long and hard about it. I figured that we can never understand the truth of these things unless we understand what God has to say about it and the very character of God that reveals the truth to help us understand it.
I guess there's something very basic that everyone needs to be aware of before they make a truth claim. (eg. The evil in this world proves that there is no God.) And that is the other side of the coin.
Evil gains its definition from Good and so does Good gains its definition from evil. So the existence of evil cannot disprove the existence of good.
Good gains its definition from the very character from God and therefore without God being in the equation how do we define anything as evil? There is no point of moral reference.
Languages may be created by humanity but language is not. (Note the 's') In Psalms 19 King David noticed that the very creation has a language (aka DNA). Romans 1 and 2 speak about us having a moral law within, the innate conscience to know right from wrong. There is this certain language in creation that transcends beyond the languages created by humanity.
When Abraham was wrestling with God about the destruction and judging of Sodom and Gomorrah. Abraham asked God "Are you really going to destroy the righteous with the unrighteous as well" And God answered him "shall not the judge of earth do what that is right?"
God in his sovereignty created this world. God reminds us that there is a language from heaven and the glory of creation, that there is a moral law within. Then he says to us that he himself will do what which is right.
---
When I was studying Habakkuk i noticed that he raised the very same questions too and the most important thing that we can notice is how God replied Habakkuk.
His main question is this: "How, Oh Lord can you explain your sovereignty when there is such violence, injustice and evil?
(Chapter2:18-20)God's first answer to him is the introduction to his existence, I AM.
In other words God is saying that the answer we are looking for can never be found without ME in this equation. Without God, even the question doesn't make sense anymore. What do we violate, when there is no purpose and no essence? The only way we can violate is to have a clear understanding of essence.
That’s why GK.Chesterton say and i quote: "God is like the sun. You cannot look at it, but without it you cannot look at anything else."
And the answer begins with God introducing the existence of his very being.
And what God is saying to Habakkuk is this, that the world is a idol builder and will sooner or later reflect the idols it has built but the LORD is in his holy temple, let all the earth be silent before him.
The thing that God reminds Habakkuk is that right and wrong and the sacredness of life finds it definition from the very chanter of God and if we understand the very chanter of God then we will find that impetus within our own heart to not only find that the reality of God makes a difference in the way we think but the reality of God goes beyond that, it makes a difference in the way we live and the way we behave.
---
There are 4 fundamental questions of life that everyone will at some point need to answer in order to find coherence in their lives:
1) Origin - how do i come into being.
2) Morality - how can i determine what is right and what is wrong.
3) Meaning - what’s the purpose of life itself.
4) Destiny - what happens to a human being after he or she dies.
In this case of good and evil, it’s the question of morality.
It’s an interesting thing to note that an atheist or those living their lives devoid of the consciousness of existence of God cannot even answer any of them with certainty. Without Jesus there are uncertainties everywhere.
For me, it is because of this that compels me to appreciate Jesus and what Jesus did on the cross and that that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life :)
I want to reply to what Hoho commented earlier on...
"We cannot be intrinsically valued unless we are creatures of essential worth." Is that in absolute terms? Laws cannot convey that to us, laws can only recognize that for us. Romans 1 and 2 speak about us having a moral law within, the innate conscience to know right from wrong.
Let’s say i pass you an infant and ask you to kill it in front of me, can you (or anyone) say that it is morally wrong? Even so, to say that it is right or wrong is to acknowledge a moral frame of reference. That also means you have just chosen a choice absolutely.
Check out what Paul wrote in Romans chapter7:7-12. We cannot say that because pain and suffering (therefore evil) exists, therefore God doesn't exist. That’s a logic flaw by itself.
In order for good and evil to exist there must be an absolute moral law to define them. And an absolute moral law can only exist if God exist and because of our finite character, Man cannot be the measure of all things or we will be forced to ask which man is the source of measure. Because of our finitude also we cannot assume that we have the capacity to decide whether the moral law exists. Truth is, like how Ravi Zacharias puts it, "No matter how hard we try, we cannot deny a moral frame of reference without invoking a moral absolute."
Truth by definition and proposition is exclusive and cannot include everything. If it includes everything there is no such thing as falsehood and if there's no such thing as falsehood and there’s no such thing as truth.
If a person says that they don't need God then you can say to them that their life can never be coherent. Our life have to answer the questions of origin, morality, meaning and destiny coherently and to answer the questions coherently, we will need a transcendental perspective.
When we look at God's word we are reminded time and time again that we can't trust unaided reason, because we cannot be sure of our purity of will and that our senses cannot empirically explain all of reality. The world is how it is now because truth is no longer absolute. The world needs to recognize a moral frame of reference and therefore we cannot live our lives coherently without God.
heyys pastor ronald.
this is janice.sec 1 one.so dontknow if you know who i am.haha.
mm this is so deep.and cheem.and when i read your post i started thinking abt why there is still evil on earth.my friends msn nickname is 'proof that God is evil-people who hide, lie, flare up,give up and hate'
God is good.that is the defination of good.like what joey said.and everything else.which is what humans do.is not good.it will still be considered as evil.mm one of our memory verses (redbook) is 'all of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags (isiah 64:6)'so we are sinful.
God has the power to remove all evil in the world.but i think He's like putting us to a test.like what He did to job.but we will be rewarded eventually in heaven.the way the world acts seems as if there is no God.but God gave us choices here on earth. we can choose what we want to do.we can choose to do or not to do His will.
aiya i dont really know.im really confused now.haha.look forward to your paper.and sry i cant say deep stuff abt this subject.ive been asking myself lots abt this too.
heyys pastor ronald.
this is janice.sec 1 one.so dontknow if you know who i am.haha.
mm this is so deep.and cheem.and when i read your post i started thinking abt why there is still evil on earth.my friends msn nickname is 'proof that God is evil-people who hide, lie, flare up,give up and hate'
God is good.that is the defination of good.like what joey said.and everything else.which is what humans do.is not good.it will still be considered as evil.mm one of our memory verses (redbook) is 'all of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags (isiah 64:6)'so we are sinful.
God has the power to remove all evil in the world.but i think He's like putting us to a test.like what He did to job.but we will be rewarded eventually in heaven.the way the world acts seems as if there is no God.but God gave us choices here on earth. we can choose what we want to do.we can choose to do or not to do His will.
aiya i dont really know.im really confused now.haha.look forward to your paper.and sry i cant say deep stuff abt this subject.ive been asking myself lots abt this too.
Genesis 50:20 says "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today."
And the words "meant" are the same for both instance. So what man meant for evil, God not just allows for it to happen, He means for it to happen because He has His divine purposes to fulfil and thru Joseph Israelites survived the famine and were able to multiply in the land of Egypt.
What man meant for evil, God meant for good. God's sovereignty is evident and whatever happens is in God's hands and He might have a bigger part in it then we ever thought or knew.
Look at Job, Satan could only do as much as God allowed, is God then evil? No, He had His purposes to fulfil and through Job we know that God is sovereign and in control.
At the end of the day trials (can be "Evil") mature us into perfection, mold us into the persons that God want us to be.
And at the end we have to cling on to God's promise that He witholds no good thing from those who love Him.
How can we in our puny wisdom try to decide what is "good" and "evil", perhaps what is commonly known as "evil" or suffering is one of God's to test His subjects/children.
The only way we know something's worth is to test it, the only way we know if a weapon is worthy is by testing it's battle worth in real battles.
I cannot resist giving you a quote by John Bunyan..
All the ways of the persecutors are God's. Daniel 5:23. ... God's bridle is upon them, God's hook is in their nose: yea, and God has determined the bounds of their rage, and if he lets them drive his church into the sea of troubles, it shall be but up to the neck, and so far it may go, and not be drowned. 2 Kings 19:28; Isaiah 37:29; 8:7-8. I say the Lord has hold of them, and orders them; nor do they at any time come against his people but by his license and compassion how far to go and where to stop.
From Bunyan's Seasonable Counsel, or Advice to Sufferers, pp. 725-726
Got this quote from John Piper's book Tested by Fire
Hope this helps!
Concerning this issue, i just happened to discuss it with Matt over lunch on sunday, and i found i learnt a lot from him, so i guess the stuff posted here would be more or less similar to what he posted. heh heh.
well anyways, from what ive learnt, its quite impossible to have a world with all good and no evil. with reference to hoho's point, i believe that its not really an issue of relativity, but an issue of what really defines what. imo, relativity would be something like a>b>c, in a's case, by being 'better' at someone in morals doesnt neccessarily mean he's good, it may just mean b and c may be worse off than him. however, i feel that maybe good and evil can be sort of inversely proportionate? with good comes evil, without evil, there wont be anything that defines the good.
a certain point matt always brings up to tell me in discussions: God could have created four worlds.
Firstly, a world with all good. this means there will be no evil, what then can define good? thus, there will be no morals.
Secondly, a world with all evil. this means there will be no good, and vice versa. no morals either.
Thirdly, a world which is just neutral. whats there to say.
Lastly, the world we're living in now, which has both good and evil. this allows the good to define what evil is, and the other way around as well. its not about God being able to remove all evil in the world, or whether he wants to do it or not. imo, again, its just the ideal world for us humans to live in. without morals, the world will then be in utter chaos, with no 'right' to define the 'wrong' and the other way round, what kind of world do you think we'd be living in?
i believe this world that God has provided for us gives us the ideal balance. it allows us to 'determine' the difference between right and wrong, and in this way, God has also granted humans with free will and choice. we have the right to choose whether to sin or do good, and these can only be defined by the two different poles.
anyway, thats just my two cents worth, thanks. :)
I'm assuming that we're equating suffering with evil? Hope this helps
http://tubesocksandsandals.blogspot.com/2006/02/ouch_23.html
Classic Example of
"Prove by Contradiction"
If A logically results in B, and B is observed to be false, it follows that A is not true.
hence #
"A good God in an Evil world"
-Definitely a very theological topic for a paper.
I think the answer to this question, of whether God and Evil can coexist in our world, is strongly rooted in our background, of whether we are trying to seek an argument of conflict or integration between science and religion.
If you were to find an answer based on science alone, then it would be easy to argue that there does nto exist a God. Because the presence of evil not only suggest that an omnipotent God is not present, but also the lack of observable benevolence denotes the same thing. I refer to the debate of Steve Weinberg and John Polkinghorne, which can easily be found on any search engine. Weinberg, physicist and atheist, argues that the lack of a "personal" aspect in our world suggests that God cannot be present, and actively working towards the goodness of the world. Because if He were, then how could an all good and all powerful God allow so many evil things to occur?
The creation of the world, and the process by which living beings and intelligent beings have evolved, have commonly been attributed to the presence of God who accompanies and guided the world to what it is today. But considering the process of evolution, whereby species have progressed at the expense of others, seems too messy, random, and cruel for it to be God-guided. Moreover, Weinberg seeks proof that a God exists,and since this has never been the case, the "problem of evil" can only be solved by concluding that the idea of a living God is too speculative and too unrealistic to be true.
Polkinghorne goes on to discuss that God and Evil can be integrated into a single idea of free will, that God was all loving, so much so that he gave his people free will, and independence. And that evil in this world is the result of that "free will". "For true love is shown in the gift of independence, a gift that parents inevitably give their children", despite it being a tough decision to make.
Also, evil can be seen as a consequence of God giving Man the ability to explore reality, and to learn to live. If God made everything in the world perfect, there would be no meaning to life, for we would not learn that in times of need and trouble, God is our true source of strength. No one can rule out the possibility that God's aim is to ultimately create creatures with a close-knit relationship to Him.
It seems as though both parties have a case, and that it boils down to the individual who has to make a choice about whether God and Evil must be seperated, or can be integrated.
I will conclude that it probably is less an issue of believers and non-believers, but moreso an issue of personal experience and spiritual maturity. As believers of Christ, it is essentially our duty to teach non-believers about the wonderful experience of Christ, but whether another truly believes that, in the world of natural science we are in today, there exists a God; is always a question of whether a donkey, when brought to a well, will drink.
I wrote a post in my blog entitled 'God from the Hebrew perspective'. To prevent from flooding the comments page. I though I should post the link to it instead.
I guess this is an attempt to answer why God was 'seemingly evil' in the Old Testament. See the below link.
http://theupperroomdiaries.blogspot.com/2006/05/god-from-hebrew-perspective.html
Post a Comment